In the latest episode of "ITSPmagazine Podcast - Audio Signals With Marco," Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr. shares his inspirational journey from HVAC technician to cybersecurity engineer, shedding light on the human aspect of technology and diversity in the cybersecurity field.
Guest: Dr. Joseph James Burt-Miller Jr., Co-Host, Cyber Coffee Hour & Division Chief, National Security Agency
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/drjjbmj/
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
The Human Dimension of Cybersecurity
Cybersecurity is more than just coding, hacking, and defending against cyber threats; it's a realm deeply rooted in human stories, diverse journeys, and the unwavering spirit to overcome challenges. This was vividly captured in the recent episode of the "ITSPmagazine Podcast - Audio Signals With Marco," featuring the insightful Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr. His story, from starting in the military as an HVAC technician to becoming a cybersecurity engineer with the U.S. government, underscores the unique paths individuals take into the cybersecurity field.
Diversity and Representation in Cyber
The podcast delved into the importance of diversity and representation in cybersecurity, emphasizing how personal stories of overcoming adversity can inspire others to pursue careers in tech. Dr. Joseph's transition from the military to a successful career in cybersecurity illustrates the industry's accessibility to those willing to learn and adapt. His story is a powerful reminder that cybersecurity professionals do not fit a single mold - they are people with varied backgrounds and experiences, united by their passion for protecting the digital world.
Leadership, Empathy, and the Power of Storytelling
A recurring theme in the conversation was the significance of leadership and empathy in the cybersecurity industry. Dr. Joseph discussed the impact of great leadership on team success and personal growth, advocating for a more people-centric approach in technical fields. The narrative also highlighted the role of storytelling in motivating and inspiring action, as well as in educating both professionals and the public about cybersecurity's multifaceted nature.
The Cyber Coffee Hour Podcast: A Platform for Untold Stories
Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr., alongside his co-host Alfrezo, aims to offer a new perspective on cybersecurity discussions through their podcast, "The Cyber Coffee Hour." By focusing on personal stories, challenges, and successes, they intend to spotlight underrepresented voices and experiences in the tech industry. Their approach underscores the crucial need for more inclusive conversations within the cybersecurity domain.
Cybersecurity: A Field for All
This episode serves as a reminder that cybersecurity is not just a profession for the stereotypical hacker in a hoodie; it's a vibrant field open to anyone with curiosity, determination, and a willingness to make a difference. The industry thrives on diversity, benefiting from a broad spectrum of perspectives and skills. As Dr. Joseph and Marco Ciappelli conversed, it became clear that embracing the human aspect of cybersecurity is key to fostering innovation and bridging the talent gap.
The podcast episode with Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr. is a testament to the rich and diverse backgrounds that compose the cybersecurity community, and how it connect with stories of resilience, leadership, and human connection. It's an invitation to all, regardless of background or skill level, to explore the endless possibilities within the cybersecurity field. As we continue to navigate the complexities of the digital age, let us remember the power of diversity, empathy, and storytelling in shaping the future of cybersecurity
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Resources
Cyber Coffee Hour Podcast (LinkedIn): https://www.linkedin.com/company/cyber-coffee-hour-podcast/
Cyber Coffee Hour Podcast (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/@CyberCoffeeHour/featured
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The Birth of the Cyber Coffee Hour Podcast | Beyond the Hoodie: Defining Cybersecurity with Humanity and Diverse Journeys | A Conversation With Dr. Joseph James Burt-Miller Jr. | Audio Signals Podcast With Marco Ciappelli
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: All right, everybody. Welcome to another episode of audio signal podcast. Uh, today with me, there is another podcaster that It doesn't have the show on ITSP Magazine, but we're being connected to through someone that just started the show on ITSP Magazine, our common friend Christina Stokes, and, uh, it was a good meeting that, uh, that we had after the LinkedIn introduction, the mandatory meeting.
Nowadays, LinkedIn introduction. You know, unless we are to an event, then you're like, Hey, let me introduce you to someone. Otherwise we have to go through, through the cyber world. And that's kind of like what we're going to talk about today. The name of the podcast is, uh, it's connected to that is the cyber cyber cafe hour podcast.
And we're here with Dr. Joseph and we're going to talk cyber, but mostly we're going to talk story and storytelling, and maybe what it means. in this industry and the good that I think is doing in this industry. But, you know, you know, my opinion in regards to stories. Today, we're here to listen to what Dr.
Joseph's opinion is and what he's been doing so far. So Joseph, welcome to the show.
[00:01:21] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much, Mark. I definitely appreciate it. And, um, you know, as you mentioned, our common thread, uh, Christina, uh, she, she was definitely, uh, she was definitely the plug that, like I said, I really, uh, brought us together, but no, but this, this was great.
Um, I'm just glad to be here. Thank you.
[00:01:40] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I mean, I think this industry is such, it's big, but it's very well connected as a community. And, uh, I would say, you know, every single person. I know, knows someone else that I want to meet, that I want to talk to, and that's the beauty of having a podcast. And I think that's also why a lot of people in our industry, let's face it, there is a lot of podcasts about cyber security, right?
[00:02:05] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: There's a ton. I mean, just podcasting. Right. I mean, even just podcasts in general. Um, you know, I think, I think at this point, if you don't have a podcast, something's wrong with you.
[00:02:21] Marco Ciappelli: It's like you don't have a website, you know, years ago, and now it's like, what, you don't have a podcast? What's wrong with that?
Well, let's start with you really, uh, you know, your background for those that don't know who you are and, uh, how you ended up in the cybersecurity industry. And then of course, uh, into, into podcasting. Sure.
[00:02:40] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: So again, yep. My name is Dr. Joseph J. Burt Miller Jr. I, I am a. Cybersecurity, um, uh, engineer, uh, with the U.
S. government, I started my career actually with, with the military, uh, right after high school, um, graduated like 2002, a long time ago. Um, but no, right after high school, I, uh, went, went right into, to the air force, uh, did my basic training over in, uh, over in Texas. I did four years in the military. So during that time, I, I was, uh, focused on, I didn't do IT then.
I did HVAC and that's, those who don't know, heat and ventilation, air conditioning. So I was a HVAC, uh, uh, technician. And then, um, after I got out of the military, went to the civil government service and I bounced around quite a bit. I started with, started at the VA, uh, hospital. Um, Actually still doing HVAC.
And then I did that for about five or so years until I finally got through, um, into IT. Um, and maybe if I could just share a little bit with that, how that got going, because, um, for, for one, and, and I think this would be helpful for those who are currently in the space where they're trying to get started or try and make their way, whether they're, you know, they're working on their tenants, their resume revision and things, you know, things of that nature.
I, I get it because, um, It took me to the point I had to deal with a lot of failure trying to finally break into I. T. I, I mean, I remember I was applying for jobs and, um, I didn't get through. I was getting like at least seven rejections, at least almost to the point where I was like, you know, I was about to give up and.
Because I felt like it wasn't working. And at that point in time, I was studying for my bachelor's in, um, computer information systems at that point in time. And, um, you know, I, I mean, I was very determined to get through. And then once I finally did, it, it, it did make it that much sweeter because I understood, you know, it, it wasn't just handed to me.
I didn't get it that fast. And, and each rejection, I was working to try to improve myself. How could I make myself better? And, um, once I finally got through my first supervisor, um, who I really hold in high regard because I think he saw something in me to, to finally give me that chance. And then he saw I think he noticed the hunger in me as I was, you know, I was coming into IT.
I was new, I was a green, I was very green, you know, um, anytime there's any projects or anything like that. And maybe some of the, uh, the more of the veterans, they're like, ah, I don't want to do that. Me, I was like, I was raising my hand. I'll do it. Cause, cause, cause, you know, cause who am I to turn down, turn it down?
Cause I look at, That's experience and that's something I didn't have yet and I was very eager to learn and again, I think that's what he saw. He saw that hunger and he would give me projects that he felt that could really help me to, to, to really grow. And, um, I mean, So my, and his name is Gary and he, uh, I mean, he, now he's like retired in Florida now, but we, we've kept in contact with each other and every time I moved up and made progress in my career, I've always kept them up to speed as to.
You know how I'm doing, um, because he kind of really helped me to really set that foundation and also shape shape my mindset of how really how to really treat people, honestly, because I think a lot of times within this, uh, this career field that I've seen and Um, just, just from my experience, just you, you, you have folks who are very intelligent that, that, that know, that know their stuff that, you know, could speak.
Like I said, they, they know it back and front, um, when it comes to any particular topics when it comes to cyber, but the way they treat people is horrible. And I think we've all maybe encountered, you know, those type of people where, you know, yes, very smart genes can't question it, but they don't know how to talk to feel almost like they talk down to you because you don't know that certain that same level of, um, of intellect as them.
Um, and that's, and that's what from my career and, and, and for me, and I guess just to finish that thought, yeah, I started the VA and then I went, I went to the Midwest. I worked at the VA in, uh, in Omaha, Nebraska. I worked at the VA there. I worked at, uh, Offutt Air Force Base as a system admin. Came back to the East Coast.
I worked at the, uh, the DOD Cybercrime Center, which was very fun. And, um, then, um, Over to DHS and then now where I'm currently at with NSA. Um, so as I mentioned, just every, every stop I've had the, I said, maybe even the privilege of having that experience to, to know that, you know, I've had great leadership and I've had not, not so great leadership, but I'm able to learn, um, from both aspects because I know how that makes you feel as a human.
And so, so for a quick example, you know, someone could be, um, so as far as like the, uh, the, the bad or not so favorable supervisor or, or leadership example, you, you only want to do just the bare minimum. You know, you, you do just enough, you know, when the time, when the time hits, all right, I'm out and done.
I don't care where I'm at, finished, done for the day. Now, when you have, uh, A great leadership. Um, man, you're just willing to do anything for, for him or her. Um, you're, you're, you're willing to just run through the wall for them because, you know, they take care of you and you, and you want to do the same.
You want to make sure you take care of them. Um, and that, and I, and I think that really shaped my philosophy and how I want to, for myself, that how I want to treat people. Um, because now within my, I actually, you I just recently got a new position. I'm going to be serving as a division chief within the agency.
Oh, thank you. Thank you. And. I'm really excited about it because now I'm, because I've always wanted to be in a physician where I could, um, have that influence and be able to give people a chance and to have that authority. And, and one of the things I even said during my interview, Was that I want to bring back to the position to be more people centric, you know, more people focus.
Yes, the mission is important. Can't question that. We have to make sure we get the mission done. I'm not questioning that, but at the same time, it doesn't mean we have to treat people Like, um, less than, you know, because of it, you know, so, um, I think, I think we, we, we, I want to bring that back, uh, to that position, to that leadership and just, like I said, just, I think leadership in general, I mean, and maybe even we try to even reevaluate.
The people that we do put in these type of positions. Yes. Like, as I mentioned before, yes, they may be smart. I know this stuff, but how do, how do they treat others? Can they curate teams? Can they get people to work together towards that one common goal? Um,
[00:10:22] Marco Ciappelli: I'm going to, I'm going to say something here because I, growing up, I always have this, I've done a lot of sport when I was a teenager.
And, uh, I remember, One of the things I started noticing as a young kid was the fact that Some people are really good player into some sport like my case soccer or other kind of sport like being italian That's something But uh, but the point is some people were really good like the the excellent player But could you ask like how do you do that?
They couldn't tell you how to do it They just do it other people that maybe they were not the best player You They had that, that gift of teaching you, like giving you, you know, training and motivate you. And I think it applies to, to leadership, uh, very, very much. Like some people are really good at doing things and we need those, but some people may not be the best in the field, but they're the best at creating the best.
And so I mean, it's, it's a parallel that it doesn't matter who you're leading on where you're leading. Even in a family, you want to be a good leader for your kids. You know, you need to be understanding. You'd be, you're not a dictator, right?
[00:11:41] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: Right. Exactly.
[00:11:42] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And the role of storytelling into this, I feel like telling story and giving example and metaphor, and that's the core of motivating people.
[00:11:52] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: No, you know, Marco, I'm glad you even brought that up because I always believe that sports and cybersecurity are not that different. I think as you say, you know, cause even as you gave that example, I'm thinking of, so for me, my top sport, um, is basketball. I mean, I love basketball, football, baseball, even hockey.
I started getting into hockey probably like in 2020. And I actually, Hockey is very fun, especially if you go to the game. Uh, it's, it's a lot of fun. I actually didn't put it up there with NBA as far as fun level. It's pretty fun. But, um, but no, as you were even laying out example, laying that example out, um, you think of, so in terms of basketball, So yeah, if you have someone, you have a player that's really great, you know, can score 40 points a night, 30, 40 points a night, you know, just unstoppable, but they would be considered maybe a ball hog because they don't get their teammates involved to try to make them better.
So then that player's individual status is great, but their team record is, is horrible because they're just not winning. Um, Now, on the flip side, yes, you may have someone, um, maybe they're not scoring the 40 or 30 points. Maybe they have a lot of assists. You know why? Because they're getting the other teammates involved, making sure they put them in a position to be successful.
And, and then you look at that overall record, they're winning. They're in the playoffs. Because, you know, That, that leader, he's sacrificing maybe his personal stats or his personal, um, accolades. So that way the whole team can succeed. And I think, again, that's really saying that you have to look at when it comes to, even in the world of cybersecurity, when you have, when you have your teams and you're building your teams up, you can't, as far as a, as a leader, you don't want to be the one, of course, that's, that's going to just take all the credit.
You, you want to be able to put. You want to be able to put your team in a position to be successful, you know, understand their strengths and that of course that's going to take time to curate relationships with your team, you know, develop chemistry. The best teams are the ones that have the best chemistry.
I don't think you could even beat that if, cause if, if you have, you know, cause cause thinking about you, you're trying to put, let's say you're looking at a cyber team, maybe a five to six people on one team together, coming from all different backgrounds, different personalities, thought processes, and things of that nature.
As a team lead, your, your job is to try to bring all those, those varying, um, mindsets and personalities together and to get everyone to buy in to, to that common goal. So, so that may require, you know, maybe sacrifice on certain aspects from some team members, things of that nature. Some may have to do a little more, whatever the case is, but if you get everyone to buy in and, and again, you, you have that chemistry, you understand where people are.
And even as I talk about trying to be more, uh, people centric, not, not just focus, not just completely focusing on the mission, but understand where they are as a, as a person, you know, You know, wanting team members may have had a death in a family or, you know, someone's maybe that their spouse is, is, uh, going through a pregnancy and, you know, they staying up late, you know, because of it, because with the baby and everything like that, um, Just understanding, like, we're not all robots, you know, we still have lives outside of the work and sometimes, you know, that may carry over or spill over into the work and I think as a lead you have to be proactive and to understand that and, um, just having some empathy and understanding just where your team are and how best you could serve them.
And even, you know, so even with that, you're kind of even implementing a bit of that servant leadership. You want to be able to do what you can to help your team, um, be as successful as it can be.
[00:16:00] Marco Ciappelli: Is this the leadership aspect and the career, you know, the human aspect of cyber security is at the core of your show?
Is kind of like where the conversation you try to steer it?
[00:16:16] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: Right. Yeah. So, um, so what, what, when my, myself and my cohost, uh, Alfrezo, when, when we got started with the, uh, the Cyber Coffee Hour, one of the things that we, we did, uh, or I say one of the motivations that got us, got us going is that we, you know, we surveyed the landscape as it pertains to, you know, cyber podcasts.
And one of the things we, we, we learned, um, that we gathered from it is that, you know, we'll, we'll see a lot of. Um, a lot of podcasts that are featuring, um, you know, individuals who may be, you know, in those C suite positions, you know, CIOs, CISOs, CTOs, what have you. And, um, there's not enough focus on those who are just getting started because even those, those CISOs, as I just mentioned, they didn't start out as, as such, they had, uh, they started, they started from the bottom and worked their way up.
And, uh, I mind you, and I'm not saying I have to bash him because my personal goal is to become a CSO myself. So, but it's, but I feel a part of it is lacking is that because I don't think there's not enough voice being given to those who are maybe dealing with gatekeeping, trying to get into the Cybersecurity field, uh, racism, you know, um, also, you know, even the amount of issues that women had to go through, uh, black or white, what we're trying to get into, trying to get into the field.
And I don't think, I don't think those stories are being told because a lot, I think a lot of the messaging that comes out with, with cyber is, um, You know, well, for one, you have, you have, you have one side that will say that, you know, there's a, there's a big gap, uh, cybersecurity jobs gap. And, you know, it gets continued to widen.
Um, but then when you look at some of these, I guess, quote unquote, entry level positions, and they want you to have a CISSP, You know, with like three years experience, I'm like, that's not entry level.
[00:18:18] Marco Ciappelli: It is the famous startup position with 10 years experience.
[00:18:23] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: You know, you, you, you have to start getting experience when you're a kid.
Like you got to start working with you at like 10 years old to get experience according to those standards. I mean, it's, it's nuts. But, uh, but no, we, yeah, what we want to do is give a voice to those who are, like I said, getting started, who, who feel like they're, they're being underrepresented, their, their voices are not being heard.
And we want to make sure we highlight the, you know, those individuals and, um, and also because. When you hear those type of stories, you're more able to relate to them, especially because like for me, myself growing up in New York, in Mount Vernon, New York, I, um, I didn't have anyone that looked like me, you know, doing this and.
I keep that in mind for as, uh, as I continue to progress and the work that I do is that I want to be able to set that example for those coming up behind me. So, you know, of course for my kids and also those who maybe just try and get started, who are thinking about getting started in cyber and, and to know to say, Hey, I, I see, I see he's doing, or I see, or I see that she's doing it.
You know, maybe I could do that too. Um, because I think representation is important if, you know, I say a lot of people, um, Kind of make up their mind on things if they see, if they see someone that they can relate to, just to see someone doing it already.
[00:19:48] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And I, I'm a big fan of podcast in general, not just in cybersecurity, but in general is really help, you know, like before the podcast, it was the blogging, you know, the blogging, whatever.
Uh, but the point is it was regular people doing their job, not. Not the street level, not the celebrity that were able, you know, it's kind of like a democratization of, of, uh, of the media, right? I mean, you, you can access, you get a small microphone, you don't even need a microphone. If you want, you can use the computer microphone and, and with few bucks or for free, you, you can give it a go and you can have a conversation with someone.
And. And you can bring your story. Now I'm going to go back into the story to to the digital world or the wave if you were broadcasting and and people can see that. Hey, um. Someone is doing that. Why, why not me? So when I say there is a lot of cyber security podcasts, I don't say in a bad way, you know, I, I'm actually happy because more people hear about that being also in that industry.
Uh, myself, that's how ITSP magazine started. So, um, tell me, like, is there any stories that stuck out more than others so far? Uh, You know, I, I think you mentioned someone that you brought into the show when we were chatting before recording that actually is not in cyber security. And I Oh, yeah. Yeah. That, that was kind of cool to me.
[00:21:29] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: Yeah. Oh yeah. No, absolutely. Um, I, one, one of my favorite, uh, episodes was, uh, the episode we featured, her name was, uh, Valina. Pinoc. Uh, she's from Jamaica. And, um, and, and that was very special one to me because my bloodline Jamaican, uh, well, my parents, they're from Jamaica. And so when we had her on it and she shared her story.
Um, she, yeah, she, she mentioned that, you know, at first go around, you know, she, she wasn't in cybersecurity. I think she was doing like hotel management, if I remember correctly. Um, and like she was with a friend and a friend was trying to kind of talk her into doing it. So she actually, they did a class for a little while, then she quit and then kind of went back to hotel, hotel management for a bit.
And then, but she really saw like, man, I really don't want to do this, you know, rest of my life type of thing. So she, she, she gave it another go and then this time she went all in, like, she just, um, I mean, she, she had like a whole laundry list of certs now, um, you know, a network plus a plus security. I mean, I remember when I was reading her intro, I was like, oh wow, this, this doesn't stop.
But no, I, I think it was really great. I thought it was really fascinating to hear because, um, and even one of the things she even said when she was on the show, because she, she didn't think that she was, she would be considered to even be on a show, uh, like that. But to me, you know, I guess maybe from the outside looking in you, you see someone who has that talent and, and that, um, that perseverance, I'd say, because to know that she, she really found a love, you know, like I said, it didn't start out that way.
It wasn't like love at first sight. And, um, She stepped away from it for, for a little while and it came back, but then she really, she really, like I said, she really had a love develop a passion for it. And, you know, it really showed. And, and, um, she, she's really doing a lot of great, a lot of great work. Um, she's very hot, very highly skilled.
And one of the things I, I, I enjoyed after the episode was that, um, You know, there was a lot of great, uh, she received a lot of great praise from her peers. I, you know, when, when we posted her episode on LinkedIn and a lot of our friends were saying, Oh man, I came, you know, you know, that was a great episode.
That was great. You know, everyone was just, just, there's a pouring of encouragement for her. I thought it was really cool. And that's, that's what we wanted to do. We want to give those voices, those, you know, who are, who are doing to me. Who are doing, you know, very good things within the field. Um, she has a great heart and, and I could definitely see her being a leader, you know, you know, you, you know, years down the road or, or even shorter than that, um, because, uh, she's such on a very high trajectory with the way she's going, but, um, but no, and, and, and that's, and that's what we want to do.
We, we want to feature and highlight. People who are, like I said, it may not be the CIO, CTO, CTOs yet, but they're getting started and they're making a big impact. They're impacting their community. And they give, they're making that example. Cause even like our friends now, they see her now to see her on a podcast, cyber podcast and like, Oh man, I didn't know Belita was, I didn't know she was doing it like that.
And they get encouraged because they see someone that they, that, that, that they know that they can relate to. And they're like, Oh man. And he started thinking that maybe I should. Consider cyber security. Um, and that's how, honestly, I think that's how you really can effectively impact and change lives because you have to show you have to show that it could be done.
So I think she did exactly that.
[00:25:12] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I mean, there are so many ways you can motivate people and I go back to sometimes you watch a movie as a kid and you get inspired. Say, Hey, I can do that. Or you see someone in TV or, but again, it's about democratizing it. It's, it's hard to kind of connect with the celebrity.
Plus there is this idea that everything is an overnight success, right? You're a musician and, oh, he made, made it big. I'm like, yeah, but it's, it's hard. This person has been playing since I was a little kid, like, and probably failed and got refused a million times. It's not really an overnight success. So it goes back to the sport.
It goes back to you failing, you know, uh, many times. I'm a big, uh, passionate of, uh, NASA history, all the Apollo program and Mercury, so I always listen. And the amount of time you hear the astronauts had to apply. to get the just in the program it's it's crazy and these are like you know test pilot back in the days and all of that and it goes in everything and so we we need to break this myth that you know it's either an overnight success and if you don't make it at the first try Try you.
You need to give up. It's it's BS. I mean, it's bullshit.
[00:26:32] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: Marco. I, I, I agree wholeheartedly. And I think that's why maybe even some people get discouraged because, um, and I don't want to necessarily pick pick on LinkedIn. Um, but. I think a lot of times if you, if you look, you know, someone who's maybe getting started on LinkedIn, maybe not understand how the algorithm works.
And you know, they see like posts that are posts like, Oh man, so and so got a new job, so and so got a new cert or whatever, whatever. And, and they, you look at yourself, you're like, man, I'm not doing that. Like, what am I doing wrong? You know, but what they don't. Well, those people who are posting about those jobs or new certs or just new, um, chapters in their lives, they don't share, a lot of times they don't share the failures that led up to that point.
So you don't really get the full story, you know, that, you know,
it's hard to do that. Cause I think a lot of people, it makes them vulnerable. They don't want to talk about the losses. They only want to talk about the wins. And for me, I think it's important to talk about, uh, the losses as well, because that's part of the journey. Um, uh, for, for me when I pursued my, my network plus, uh, my network plus certification, I, uh, I took it originally in, uh, 2017, uh, at that point in time, I, I took it with my security plus cert.
I. I passed the security plus first try, man. We, I think it was like a week or two later, then I didn't study as hard admittedly for the net plus cause I thought it was pretty much similar, uh, to the net plus field. Um, but then in my mind, I'm like, I'm not going to be a network engineer. I, you know, I'm not going to need this.
So I left it alone for years. And then until I got to, um, the NSA, I started last year and, uh, When I received my, uh, the projects that I was being assigned and I was like, Oh man, I, I see, this is like a little bit more technical. I think I need to go and get that network plus. So, um, yeah. So then last year I took it, I took it again, uh, in May of failed it then.
And then again, in December of last year, failed it again. And then, um, well, still, still determined to pass. I still wanted to get it. And, uh, I took it, uh, I think, yeah, last month. Took a last month and passed, finally passed. So, and each time, even with that, even the failures, I post the failures too, because I think it really goes to show like, because I think a lot of people feel, you know, as you mentioned, if they feel like they don't get it their first try or they feel like they, that they're a failure and that's not true.
To me, I think That shows courage. I mean, you still try, you still try to work at it. Um, I think the biggest travesty is when you fail and then you don't try again because you, you, you never know what you're missing once you finally get to the other side of failure. Um, and I'll be my message to anyone, you know, even listen to this, like, you know, no matter how many times you fail, if it's something that you do.
Really want to pursue something that you believe in, uh, keep going at it, you know, I mean, maybe make the, uh, minor adjustments that you need to do, you know, whatever it is, but if that's something that you truly believe in and you want to do, don't quit no matter what people say, no matter what people do, keep going for it, keep striving and you'll, you'll get there because it will make it work.
It will make the reward that much more sweeter because you are, you, you went through all that and, and you know how it feels, you know, going through that whole journey, you know how that made you feel and then to finally get it, it, it, you, you appreciate it more. It means a whole lot more than someone, maybe, like I said, if they just get it with no problem.
So yeah, just, just keep striving and keep working. Don't, don't quit.
[00:30:39] Marco Ciappelli: Hey, look, when you look at stories. Any story, you know, you can work to Disney, you know, master of story with cartoons and all of that, but any other movie or book, there's always that failure. Many times it's a lot of failure, right? And then, you know, eventually you get there.
Why people write like that? Because first of all, I think it's life, right? And social media is not just LinkedIn, in general, social media, not doing a good, uh, a good deed for teenagers in general and kids because you know, the moment you go there again, it all seems like oh why they have this beautiful life and career and And you know, and yeah, tell me how you got there And and the other thing is just because we I think we fuel Um, we we get energized and we become better because now you're here You you told your story and I I am sure a hundred percent that You Most of the people listening to this, they're probably thinking like, Hey, I'm not gonna give up.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna get going. So we need to share this story and to be and to be candid and open and all of that. So tell me as we start wrapping here on time, what are you envisioning? What kind of story are you envisioning for your podcast? Cause it is relatively new. Um, you know, you have, uh, you know, and I think what 13 episodes the last time I check my,
[00:32:10] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: yeah, we're, um, we actually got a couple more in the pikes.
So we're hitting around me
[00:32:16] Marco Ciappelli: about those and, and, and kind of like, what, what is, uh, what kind of people do you want to bring to this show? I mean, maybe right now there is people in the industry listening and like, Hey. I want to go share my story because that's, that's the kind of story that, uh, that Dr.
Joseph is, uh, stalling on the show.
[00:32:34] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: No, no, absolutely. Um, so one thing is that I'll share first is that what we want to do, um, and again, as our Fraser and I, uh, worked on this is that we want to be different, like from, from the, the, like I said, that landscape of a cyber podcast. So much. And so is that we want to.
Not only feature those who are, who have that cyber security background, but even those who don't have that cyber security background. And the reason for that is, I think we could even reach more people by meshing two different genres or maybe two different worlds together. with the common thread of cybersecurity.
And I gave you a perfect, uh, one good example is that, um, one of our episodes, which I thought was a lot of fun that we had was, um, uh, Dexter Henry. He's a New York Post, uh, sports commentator. And, um, He's never done a cybersecurity podcast ever, ever in his life. Um, he's, you know, he's all sports and everything.
And, and I followed his, his work for a while as well. Um, but I reached out to him and said, Hey, you know, you know, kind of like the shot in the dark or, you know, I told him, I said, Hey, I love, love what you're doing. Love to bring you on. To the cyber coffee hour. And, um, surprisingly, he was very excited to come on board, but we had him on.
And so, so, and what we want to do, I said, so in this situation, we have, when we have a guest that doesn't have that, that cybersecurity background, we, we, we, we still try to find that common thread. So in this situation, in this episode, we talked about cyber threats that happen within sports. So, um, I think we talked about during that point in time, uh, that there was a cyber attack within the NBA, uh, certain, uh, certain couple of teams.
I think one of them featured the Houston Rockets. They had to deal with a cyber attack and also like, uh, different cyber attacks that happened like with the NFL, uh, the Olympics, um, things of that nature. So we was able to have a great discussion on that. And so the whole purpose or strategy behind that is, so now when, uh, Um, Dexter's followers, people who follow him or his peers or what have you, they see him cause of course they, they, they used to seeing him on, like I said, sports related podcasts or shows or like his own sports shows, but now when you see him on like a cyber podcast, they're like, Whoa, what is Dexter doing there?
And now they start getting intrigued and you know, it, it, it gets them thinking. And they see that they listed a conversation and maybe though, like I said, maybe his followers of his peers, um, Dexter's peers, they see him on this type of show and maybe they had an interest in cyber security and they didn't, you know, maybe they need that little push to finally get them over, you know, get them over the fence and say, Hey, maybe I should pursue cyber.
Cause that, you know, that sounds pretty cool. And, and, um, so. Again, what we're trying to do, we want to think of innovative ways, different ways of, cause we talked about, I think earlier, the, the big, uh, uh, cybersecurity jobs gap, you know, um, try, try to attract more talent. And I think we have to think, we have to think differently.
We have to think of different ways, how we can do that. I think we have to sometimes kind of meet people where they are, maybe touch on some of, You know, their interests that has nothing to do with cyber and still trying to, like I said, find that common thread and then pull on it. Um, and also it just makes it more fun.
I think it helps to give even the cyber security field a better I'd say a better reputation. Try to give it a little bit more life, as opposed to, it's not just for geeks and nerds and things of that nature. It can be fun. You can, there's a lot of things that you can do, a lot of different avenues within cyber that you can explore.
Um, especially if you're coming over from maybe a different career field. There's something in cyber for you that you can do, that you can pursue. Um, you have to give it a shot and um, Like I said, you can have a lot of fun and um, you know, it, it, try, try to change like those perceptions or maybe those misconceptions that maybe people may have about cyber or you have to be a certain way to, to get in or this and that.
No, I mean, if it's something you want to do, just come through.
[00:36:58] Marco Ciappelli: You don't need a hoodie.
[00:37:00] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: No, no, no. See,
[00:37:04] Marco Ciappelli: Well, you know, I think he's opening I mean i've been I'm, not a tech person. I remember that. I remind that everybody all the time I come from branding sociology and political science, but The more I have a conversation on my other show or with sean on on the cyber security one I mean we talk with with Researcher with political science.
We talk with psychologists. We talk about social engineering And and and open it up to a lot of different Avenue. I mean, law, uh, with artificial intelligence, now generative AI, it's getting all over the places. There's privacy. I mean, you name it. So I am happy that people like you are not just having the tech to talk conversation.
We're not just talking about breach and, uh, and the next, I mean, we need that. Of course. No, of
[00:37:58] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: course. Yeah.
[00:37:59] Marco Ciappelli: Not everybody should trust that. So I, I, I'm excited to hear. More of your stories. I'm glad that you found the time to come here. We had a coffee together. Yeah This is all about storytelling, but hey, I enjoy my cup of coffee with you and And I wish you all the best and for everybody listening I hope I have the link to your social media if they want to get in touch with you, your website, the podcast, and anything you want to, you want to share and, uh, for everybody that is listening now, subscribe to my show, subscribe to Dr.
Joseph's show and his co host and, uh, together we're trying to share more stories so more people can come in the industry and, uh, Yeah, it's it's a pretty cool job. I gotta say we're not telling the story the right way I get right You know if you want to add on that, please I mean It's pretty cool
[00:38:57] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: Yeah Again, it's it's trying to change those misconceptions about cyber security and I think people like I said, even as you mentioned the the
[00:39:06] Marco Ciappelli: hoodie
[00:39:09] Dr. Joseph J. Burt-Miller Jr.: Honestly, I don't even know how that Became the standard, but, uh, but no, cyber is much more than that, man.
Um, you, you, you could be cool and you know, you don't have to be a, you know, a nerd, you know, with a big gulp right next to you. You don't have to do that. You don't have to be that way. I think maybe, I think that's what kind of deters people. You're like, ah, man, I'm not, you know, I don't want to be doing that.
I mean, you could be flying and still doing cyber. I mean, come on, you couldn't. It's for everyone. So, yeah, we just got to change, got to help change the narrative.
[00:39:42] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And, uh, there's no better way to do that than sharing stories. So keep doing that and people keep listening. And, uh, again, take, take care. Uh, see you around.
All right. Thank you. Thank you very much for everybody for listening. Bye.