Dive into an enlightening conversation with Raymond Paul Johnson as he discusses his new book "Conspiracy Ignited", the art of storytelling, and the nuanced struggles of a trial lawyer turned novelist on the latest episode of the Audio Signals Podcast.
Guest: Raymond Paul Johnson, Novelist
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/raymond-paul-johnnson-author-attorney/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/RPJohnsonBooks
On Website | https://RaymondPaulJohnson.com
On Facebook | https://www.Facebook.com/RaymondPaulJohnsonThrillerWriter
On Instagram | https://www.Instagram.com/raymondpauljohnson_author
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
In the latest episode of the "Audio Signals Podcast," Marco Ciappelli welcomes Raymond Paul Johnson to discuss his new book, "Conspiracy Ignited," the ins and outs of storytelling, and the personal and professional journey from United States Air Force fighter pilot to engineer on the space shuttle program, successful trial lawyer, and ultimately to becoming a novelist. The candid conversation unveils insights into Ray's writing process, the challenges he faced, and the elements that make his thriller a compelling read.
The Introduction: A Deep Dive into Stories and Storytelling
Marco Ciappelli opens the episode with a warm welcome to the listeners, setting the stage for a journey into storytelling, creativity, and the essence of creating narratives. He introduces Raymond Paul Johnson, noting the fascinating transitions in Ray's career and how his life experiences culminate in the creation of his first novel, "Conspiracy Ignited."
Raymond begins by expressing his excitement and gratitude for being on the show and looking forward to the engaging discussion.
Who is Raymond Paul Johnson?
Ray shares a bit about his past, including his time as a combat pilot in the Air Force, his stint as an engineer on the space shuttle program, and his eventual transition to becoming a trial lawyer. He humorously recounts a prophetic encounter with his high school teacher who foresaw his future as something other than an engineer or pilot. This narrative paints a vivid picture of his multifaceted life, leading up to his unexpected yet fulfilling path as a novelist.
Ray's Writing Journey: From Courtrooms to Creative Pages
One of the key takeaways from the discussion is Ray's approach to writing. He identifies himself as a "pantser" — a writer who doesn't plot out the story but allows it to evolve organically. This method, he explains, makes the process enjoyable and keeps him surprised by the twists and turns his characters take.
He shares his influences, including Hemingway, and underscores the importance of writing what you know. For Ray, this means crafting narratives that intertwine his personal experiences with fiction, creating a textured and believable story.
Exploring "Conspiracy Ignited"
The conversation naturally flows into the main topic of the episode — Ray's novel, "Conspiracy Ignited." Marco praises the book's ability to blend reality with fiction and inquires about the real-life inspirations behind the characters and plotlines. Ray dives deeper into the protagonist, Eric Ridge, a lawyer who is also a former CIA combat pilot, and how his life mirrors certain aspects of Ray's own experiences.
Ray touches on significant themes in his book, like post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), based on his interactions with veterans and his work with the American Legion’s "Be The One" program. This initiative focuses on supporting veterans suffering from PTSD, and Ray incorporates this real-world issue seamlessly into his narrative, adding depth and provoking thought.
The Art of Storytelling
Marco and Ray shift the discussion to the broader concept of storytelling. Ray reflects on his years as a trial lawyer, explaining how vital storytelling is in presenting cases and engaging juries. He shares that the best trial lawyers, much like good writers, are compelling storytellers who can convey facts in a captivating and memorable manner.
Ray also emphasizes the broader applications of storytelling in everyday life, including teaching, advertising, and even personal interactions. This part of the conversation resonates with listeners, highlighting the universal importance of good storytelling.
Wrapping Up: An Invitation to Read "Conspiracy Ignited"
As the episode winds down, Marco offers Ray the floor to invite listeners to read his book. Ray shares his journey of getting "Conspiracy Ignited" traditionally published and how its recognition in manuscript competitions helped him bypass the often daunting process of securing an agent and publisher.
He encourages aspiring writers to put their work out there and to stay persistent, providing invaluable advice for those looking to make their mark in the literary world.
Conclusion
This episode of the Audio Signals Podcast showcases not only an intriguing discussion about Ray's new book "Conspiracy Ignited" but also serves as a masterclass in the significance of storytelling across various facets of life. From courtroom dramas to the pages of a thriller novel, Raymond Paul Johnson’s journey is a testament to the powerful impact stories can have. Tune in to get inspired and entertained, and perhaps, to ignite your own storytelling aspirations.
About the Book
“Drop the case!” Bashed over the head and tossed overboard into the cold, dark water of a Los Angeles marina, combat veteran turned litigator Eric Ridge struggles to stay alive—and discover who is trying to kill him. And why. No matter the answer, one thing is certain: Eric Ridge does not abandon his clients and will not drop the case. The question is, what case was his assailant yelling about? Working with his legal team—including his best friend and his computer-whiz wife—Ridge is ultimately drawn into the sinister world of the Raven Society, a secretive cabal that controls the courts by coercing or killing judges. And anyone else who gets in their way. In a race against the clock, will Ridge and his team survive to use the evidence they’ve developed? Or will they suffer the same fate as others who have dared to confront The Raven Society?
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Resources
Conspiracy Ignited (Book): https://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-Ignited-Eric-Ridge-Thriller/dp/B0CKYG3DPN
USC Aviation Safety Program: https://aviationsafety.usc.edu
William & Mary Law School: https://law.wm.edu
New York University: https://www.nyu.edu
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Book | Conspiracy Ignited | A Conversation With Author Raymond Paul Johnson | Audio Signals Podcast With Marco Ciappelli
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: Here we go. Another episode of Audio Signals podcast. This is Marco Ciapelli, and we are on ITSP Magazine. As you know, Audio Signals is all about stories, storytelling, and storytellers. And I get curious, and I want to know what is behind the book most of the time. What is the The author's story and uh, how they decided to write what they write or if we talk about photography or painting to produce the art they decide to produce because you know, unlike artificial intelligence, we do have a life and And that's where you usually drive us, but this is not what we're going to talk about today What we're going to talk about today is a book And uh, it's called conspiracy ignited and uh, the author is here with me You Raymond Paul Johnson.
I think it goes by Ray. If you're watching the video, that's, uh, that's how he's signing on the, on the recording platform. So welcome to the show, Ray.
[00:01:06] Raymond Paul Johnson: Well, uh, thank you for having me, Marco. Uh, looking forward to it.
[00:01:11] Marco Ciappelli: Yep. And, uh, and I, a disclaimer, when I went to, to the website, Raymond's website, I saw something very familiar and very dear to me, which is, uh, The Los Angeles South Bay.
So that's where I lived for a long time. I'm still in LA Even if not at this particular moment, and so, uh, maybe we'll talk a little bit about uh about that too Just uh, just to remind me how beautiful it is down there. But uh, Let's go with the first question. Who is Ray? That's pretty easy, right?
[00:01:45] Raymond Paul Johnson: Well, I should know, I guess.
Yeah, it's pretty easy. Um, who is Ray? At the moment, Ray is a novelist. Uh, kind of, uh, the last thing I've tried in a long list of things. Uh, uh, I don't know how far back you want to go, but, uh, When I was in high school, uh, I had a history teacher. I even remember her name, Ms. Kragenhoff and, uh, she, uh, I found out I was going to NYU, uh, and she rushed over, she was very excited.
And then she said, well, what are you going to do? And I said, my plan is to go to NYU, get an engineering degree, join the air force and become a jet pilot. And. I was waiting for some type of reaction and she just burst out laughing. And, uh, she said, uh, she goes, Ray, uh, you're a writer, you're a lawyer, but you're not going to be an engineer or a pilot, not for long.
And that was prophetic. I mean, I was both very long, but it was prophetic in the sense that later, uh, after being a pilot in the Air Force, a combat pilot, uh, Being an engineer on the space shuttle program, uh, I went ahead and went to law school. I've got an understanding wife, a very understanding wife.
And, uh, so, um, we packed up. I went to law school and I knew right away what I wanted to be, which was a trial lawyer. There was no other question, uh, about that in my mind. And we also wanted to return to LA, uh, because I took law school at the College of William Mary, uh, in Williamsboro, Virginia. And, uh, the deal was my wife would say, okay, my daughter would be okay as long as when we were finished, we returned to LA.
And that's what we did. And, uh, Rest is kind of history. I ended up, uh, starting my own law firm, uh, emphasizing product liability work and aviation law all over the country. And, uh, then, then along came COVID. I'm giving you the short version here, Marco. Along came COVID, and I saw it as my opportunity to do what really was lingering on my head, which was to write a novel, write a few novels, maybe a lot of novels, I don't know.
Uh, but, um, I did it. I closed my practice essentially, although I still consult on cases all over the country. But, uh, and I am a part time instructor at the University of Southern California, uh, teaching classes in law, uh, product liability, aviation law, and aviation safety. Um, but most of my time I spend these days, uh, writing novels.
And I've written one, Which we'll talk about in a bit, Conspiracy Ignited. I'm halfway through my second, which, uh, I won't call it a sequel, it's part of a series. And the protagonist, the hero, is a, is a fella named Earth Ridge. And, uh, He will show up in the second book if he doesn't die in the first. No, I I have to make sure I can't tell too much about the other but uh,
[00:05:21] Marco Ciappelli: exactly Well, you know, there are there are some authors very famous for killing their characters and uh, so be careful Don't kill your character if you want to write another book about although you could You know, change time and change, you know, it doesn't have to be chronologically speaking, uh, a sequel and or prequel, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Prequel, uh, like Yellowstone. Well, that's fascinating because, uh, as I was, uh, Looking at your, again, website and I look at the book, it starts with a CIA combat pilot, turned a lawyer, a secret society, uh, taking over American court, and I'm like, all right, this sounds like a little bit of what you described in terms of your career.
So, um, I think we can, we can start with the first question about the book. How much of this is? Reality is your story and how much is fiction?
[00:06:25] Raymond Paul Johnson: I'll back up just a little bit, just a little bit. I'm a Hemingway guy. I mean, I am a Hemingway writer. Short sentences, short paragraphs, short chapters and get to the point and do your best at all times and then rewrite, rewrite and rewrite.
That's what I do, and that's, uh, that's important. Hemingway also said, write what you know. Write what you know. And, uh, that sounded great to me, because the authors that I've read over the years are just that. Some of my favorites, James Lee Burke, I think he's the master of crime fiction. He's basically a poet that writes prose.
Michael Conley. Uh, I've read every book he's read. I've met him. Uh, terrific guy. Uh, Clive Kustler. Clive Kustler. Uh, he did his books in real life, as you might know. Uh, I think his son is following in that tradition now. So, um, so I, it was easy. I said, uh, you know what? Most of the major things that happen in this book are going to be real in the sense that they're going to be composites.
of things that happened to me. Uh, and, uh, I was, uh, basically witnessed every scene. Uh, but of course, each scene also is fictionalized. I mean, it has to be in order to do what I set out to do, which was to entertain. That's what I wanted to do with the book. And, uh, before we went on, I mentioned to you that I really loved your website because I looked at it and, uh, it just spoke to me.
I mean, uh, provoke thought. entertain, uh, and perhaps inspire, uh, that the, those could all be listed as my goals. So you did a great job of looking into me and putting it right out there.
[00:08:30] Marco Ciappelli: I think it needs to be everybody's, you know, a parenthesis here. Like we all, I always talk about. Storytelling when you're teaching, you know, if you're science, you know, somebody that works in science, you're, you're teaching to your students.
Nothing is as memorable as a good story.
[00:08:50] Raymond Paul Johnson: Well, it, I try to do that in my teaching at USC and, uh, uh, you know, I, I think the, I think the best professors and teachers I've ever had are the ones that do entertainment as they teach because they keep people focused on them. And, uh, and so, yeah, I, that's exactly what I try to do.
Because I know I can be effective as a teacher if I entertain somewhat
[00:09:23] Marco Ciappelli: and and grasping people attention and make it memorable. It's kind of like advertising in a way. So, um, tell me a little bit more about the book. Like how I mean, I, the Hemingway part, the, the style, the fact that you're familiar with the things that you're talking about.
It sounds to me that there could be the good and the bad in that, like where you draw the line between, okay, now I'm going to let it go with my imagination. And am I doing something bad to my, To my real story. I don't know. I'm just throwing things there because, you know, or, or it's very well complimentary what you, what you do.
[00:10:08] Raymond Paul Johnson: I, I find it complimentary. I mean, I guess you got to start with, you know, to an extent, I totally agree with this. There are two types of writers and novel writers. One is called a plotter, P L O T T E R. The other one's called a pantser, P A N T S E R. And that comes from plotter. will plot out the story, uh, sometimes from beginning to end.
The famous plotters are, uh, James Patterson, for instance, plots everything out. Jeffrey Deaver, uh, he plots everything out and they do a great job. Uh, then there's the other types, which are the pantser, which basically they fly by the seat of their pants. That's where the saying comes from. I'm a pantser.
I'll always be a pantser and I'll never not be a pantser. Uh, I start a scene, I don't know where it's going to end, let alone where the chapter's going to end. I didn't know where the book was going to end until I got to the end of the book. I let the characters drive me. Um, and uh, uh, some famous writers like that.
Well, the one that comes most to mind is Michael Connolly. He writes all his books as a pantser. Why do I do that? I do that because it makes writing enjoyable to me. If I have to plot something out and I know the ending and I, and then I just have to fill in, to me, I'm not getting surprised. When I write, I'm surprised by every scene because I don't know how they're going to end.
I don't, it's an amazing process, uh, that everybody should try. Some people won't like it, but for me, it's the only way to write. And, uh, so to that point, it's That's a long way of getting around to answer your question. Uh, I start out with something that happened in my life. And then I just let the characters take me.
And they, it doesn't have to replicate what happened. In fact, it may replicate two or three things that happened and bring it together. Because again, my number one reason to write is to entertain.
So
that's, that's most in my mind,
[00:12:27] Marco Ciappelli: very good.
[00:12:27] Raymond Paul Johnson: But along the way, I, I do provoke thought, I think. Mm-Hmm. . And we could talk about that when, when you want to
[00:12:34] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. Well let, let's do that. I'm kind of like you when you write, when I do the podcast, I, I'll go where it goes. So, right. We just went there.
Let's,
let's keep going.
[00:12:44] Raymond Paul Johnson: Oh, okay. Then we're just gonna roll right into it. I,
[00:12:47] Marco Ciappelli: I got no notes.
[00:12:49] Raymond Paul Johnson: Okay, neither do I, actually.
[00:12:51] Marco Ciappelli: You're a Pantser, right now.
[00:12:55] Raymond Paul Johnson: That's right, that's right.
That's so true. Um, by the way, I used to fly that way, too. I mean, in the Air Force, you have to be very precise. Right. I was an instructor in jets and in combat planes. What I wanted my students to be is folks that fly by the seat of their pants. Because when the instruments go down, when everything else is down Bad.
All you got is yourself. You're feeling that airplane, you're feeling the sky. And that's the way I flew for 2000 hours, 700, which were combat. So, um, yeah, provoking thought's important too. And so when I do get to a scene and I start thinking about it, it's not just a factual scenario of things. It's all right.
I want to say something in here, but I don't want to lecture. Nobody likes to hear lectures. I want to say something through the characters. And, you know, there's quite a few. This is a legal thriller, although it's interesting. In pre release reviews, it's been called a legal thriller, a crime thriller, um, what was some, oh, a action adventure thriller.
And one reviewer called it. A political thriller, which is interesting because I never thought of it as a political thriller, but it is what it is. and uh, so I wanted to Start out as a legal thriller. That was the whole idea. The main character is uh, Guess what a lawyer who flies airplanes, right? And uh, he uh, and he uses them both together.
In other words, when he goes on cases, when he goes investigating, when he does other things, eight times out of ten, he'll, he'll rent an airplane and go do it. That sort of thing up and down the West Coast. Um, so I wanted another thing to happen. I wanted this to be about a real lawyer. A lawyer actually practices, not a fictionalized lawyer who gets up and does a Harry Mason thing in a courtroom.
I wanted. Somebody who's reading it to say, Oh my God, that's how lawyers live. Now I get it. Uh, you know, he goes to work. He has to have a meeting, even though he doesn't want to have a meeting with all his associates and paralegals. They have to coordinate on the cases. They have to select cases. So hopefully in an entertaining way, what I did was I put the protagonist, Eric Ridge, right in his law firm.
In fact, it's in Redondo beach talking about the South Bay. That's that's where his office is. Uh, and, uh, Eric also sold his house because he's having some trouble with, uh, post traumatic stress since he was a combat pilot and his wife saw it. They sold his house. He rents an apartment, but it's right on the Queen's necklace, looking up the beach around to Malibu.
And, uh, he's happy there sitting out on his balcony looking and, uh, thinking about his case. So I want it to be real, but I also want it to take up certain issues that real lawyers face. Um, I'll give you a quick example if you want it.
[00:16:23] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah,
[00:16:24] Raymond Paul Johnson: okay. Uh, what I call the silent conflict in the book. The silent conflict is a situation that exists in real life, and I highlight it in the book, trying to provoke thought.
And what that is, is the conflict that an insurance defense lawyer has with his clients at times. And what I'm saying is an insurance defense lawyer, when you go out and you use your insurance to have a lawyer to defend you or, um, or whatever, um, that lawyer isn't paid by you, the client, that lawyer is paid by the insurance company.
And the insurance company is called the principal. So that lawyer has a principal and has a client and has a extreme duty. ethical duty to the client, but also has a duty, mainly a business duty, to the insurer. When the insurer asks the lawyer to do things that aren't in the best interest of the client, not in the best interest of the client, that lawyer is in a triangular relationship and that creates more conflict.
It's the same problem that medical doctors have who, you know, a medical doctor gets paid by the insurance company, not the patient, but has the highest duty to the patient and a rather high duty to the insurance company. And as we all know, sometimes decisions are made in hospitals and even in doctor's offices that perhaps are dictated by the business relationship with the insurance company.
For instance, My brother in law just had a triple bypass surgery, and he was told he has to leave the hospital four days after the triple bypass surgery, which, and go home. Uh, we took care of that problem, but you know, that was what the doctor had to say. I'm sure the doctor didn't want to Didn't really want that to happen.
The insurance company dictated it. Um, so the Silent Conflict is in Conspiracy Ignited. It's in a real life situation and it flows throughout the book. And hopefully people will read it and see both sides and all sides of the issue and provoke thought. So that's just an example.
[00:18:58] Marco Ciappelli: That's interesting. It seems like it's a thriller because I'm sure there is a, Surprising final and whatever it is that of course you're not going to say but Will you just say make me think about other conversation that I had with other writer which is that you need often to create a character that has his own story kind of like a conflicting within himself or herself whatever the main character is That kind of complement the story.
So it's a story within a story You And I was reading some of the reviews and some writers that did the review point out that that there is that, you know, CIA combat pilot memory flashback from war moment or whatever he was doing and missions and, but then also taking care of real life present now. So balancing this whole thing.
[00:19:59] Raymond Paul Johnson: Yeah, I, uh. Another way I tried to provoke thought in the book was the main character is suffering from post traumatic stress, uh, from combat. Um, the reason I did that, I'm a member of the American Legion and they have a program, which is probably our number one program, which is Be The One. Be The One, that program has to do with vets helping vets.
That's helping military veterans who are suffering from PDSD and, more importantly, suicidal. Um,
here's a fact. Well, it's not quite a fact. It's almost a fact. Every hour of every day, every hour of every day, a military veteran commits suicide. A U. S. military veteran commits suicide. Uh, the actual number is, is 22 a day. That's a VA study and an American Legion study. So it's a real big problem because we're talking about losing Losing really great people, we're losing them.
And so I wanted to bring that in the book. And that too runs through the book. Uh, again, not in a lecture sense, not even in a, in the sense of telling facts, it it's to provoke thought it's how the characters respond because of the PS PTSD, how the other. Many, many things that affect poor Eric Ridge in this book.
And he does have a lot of things come at him. Worse yet, because of this post traumatic stress that he has that heightens When other stress comes into play. So, um, yeah, that's another area I try to provoke thought, uh, in the book. I hope people like it. I hope they think about it. Uh, it's also part of Eric Ridge's arc, you know, the character arc, he starts at a certain place when you first meet him.
Page one, chapter one, and he ends up in a different place at the end. And, uh, again, getting back to what you were saying, Marco, uh, character arc is important. I mean, most of us, you can have a flat character arc. Um, I almost gave away something, but I won't, but you can have a flat character arc and you in a book, you can have some characters that have an arc where they improve some go south on you and others just say flat.
I show all of them in the book. I tried to anyway.
[00:22:51] Marco Ciappelli: Wow. It's very, it's very impressive to know that you do this. It's in a thriller, which in my head needs to be somehow plot, but you actually do it as you go. So I'm very, very intrigued by, you know, by the unexpected that maybe this way of writing will bring, will bring the reader.
[00:23:16] Raymond Paul Johnson: Thrillers. The word on the street is thrillers are usually plot driven. In
other words, you know, um, mine is plot driven, but it's just equally character driven. So I, when people, when I go to, I go to a lot of writing conferences and when I go and people start talking about, well, I'm a, my story is a plot driven, my story character driven.
I have trouble relating because I think like life, just like life, a, a good thriller novel has to be both. Otherwise, I don't know how you get the thrills. And I try to give everybody a, uh, John Gilstrap is a very good friend of mine. Uh, he was a William Mary graduate. And, uh, he always says, what I try to do with my thrillers is give people a ride.
Uh, he's, and, and yeah, that's what we, and when he said that, it immediately hit home. I said, that's what I try to do. Every scene, I try to give them a ride, but certainly they get a ride in every chapter. That's for sure. And he goes, that's the thriller, uh, no matter how you do it. Uh, so that, that was the goal anyway.
[00:24:28] Marco Ciappelli: What I, what I want to take a couple of minutes before we, we start wrapping, um, let's talk about storytelling period. Like not just your book. I mean, you, you went into a lot of different things that you, that you like, that the way you operate, the way that others operate. And so I think, I think it was very educational, honestly, for, for And I believe that everybody in a way or another is telling stories, right?
I mean, even when you just meet somebody in the street, you're telling a story. You're telling your own story. Um, you may even think about it or not, but that's what you do. But when you put it in, in, in writing, Things change a little bit. So, um, tell me something about the value, which is what you found on my website.
And you said you agree with that, the value of storytelling in our, in our society. I mean, there's a big question. I know we could have an entire episode on this, but kind of like the essence for you of the meaning of storytelling.
[00:25:32] Raymond Paul Johnson: Well, Uh, I've been a trial lawyer for over 35 years, uh, and I've You've told a lot of stories.
I've told a lot of stories, and I don't mean fictional stories. I, I, I, I mean, every single trial I put on most of my trials, yeah. Were four to six weeks in length. They're huge civil litigation trials all over the country. 16 different states I, I litigated in and, uh, uh. The one thing they all had in common from my opening statement to the last thing I said before the jury went out, it was all part of a story that hopefully is a convincing story and not a fictional story, hopefully a factual story, but you know, there are facts, there are facts, and one thing you learn as a trial lawyer is there is no black or white, there's only gray.
And so it gives you a lot of room to be a storyteller. And, uh, by the way, the best defense lawyers, I mean, most of the defense lawyers I went to trial against are among the best. They, they're representing Boeing company. They represent General Motors, all the big corporations. So they know what they're doing.
And yet I would say only 50 percent of them, the best 50 percent were storytellers. That's how important it is. And, uh, I used to love it. When I would be up against a big defense team and the main lawyer wasn't a storyteller because I had, I knew at the beginning of the case, I had an advantage here and vice versa.
When they were a storyteller, I knew I'm going to have to go pick my talent.
[00:27:16] Marco Ciappelli: Right. It's a battle of the storyteller. Yeah, I can totally see that. I mean, you're moving the judge, you're moving the jury, you're moving, and you're not lying, but even the inflection, even the, the side of the story that you decide to give more, more highlight versus the, I mean, it's, it's very much where you can, You can win or lose the case.
Can you? Well, yeah. Can you be a good lawyer and not being a good storyteller? 'cause you say you've gone for big company where somebody was not a storyteller, but there must have been good lawyer.
[00:27:49] Raymond Paul Johnson: Well, you, you can be a good lawyer, but you're not going to be, in my opinion, a good trial lawyer.
[00:27:55] Marco Ciappelli: Oh, I know.
There's a big difference. Yeah. Got it.
[00:27:58] Raymond Paul Johnson: You know, um, I was, I was going to a Broadway play. It was Jersey Boys actually. . Mm-Hmm. , uh, and uh. I sat down in the theater like we all do and the fellow next to me says, what do you do for a living? And I said, I was a trial lawyer. And the guy, he, he looked at me, my wife was wondering what was going on.
He looked at me, stood up straight and he said, Oh, you're a real lawyer. And I said, what do you mean? I'm a real lawyer. Yeah, I'm a real lawyer. He goes, I'm a real estate lawyer. I never get close to that stuff, but God, I wish I would. And you know, this fellow was in his 60s. He'd been around and probably great, great real estate lawyer, but that's, he knew the difference.
And the difference is, um, trial lawyers are storytellers. It's true. You got to be able to put the whole production together.
So
that it's, uh, not only, well, so that's believable and truthful.
[00:28:58] Marco Ciappelli: You answered to my question in, in a very, in a way that makes people think because and here's how we're going to do it.
So you, you mentioned you need to be, you know, we talked before about educating, being a good teacher. You need to be a good storyteller. Because you make things memorable. Now you're saying to be a good trial lawyer, you need to be a good storyteller. I can think about a million other example of how you need to be a good storyteller.
I mean, I've done a lot of advertising and branding. We're telling stories all the time. You go get budget for your department. Let's say cyber security. It's not just about data. You got to tell a good story. Why am I investing by the CEO is going to give you that budget, right? So my point is even a kid that wants the new bicycle, you better have a good story for dad and mom.
So that they can, they can say, wow, he really wants this bike.
[00:29:59] Raymond Paul Johnson: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's, it's true. Storytelling. Well, I guess one could even say you mentioned advertising. How about being a salesman?
[00:30:09] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah.
[00:30:10] Raymond Paul Johnson: I mean, how can you be a successful salesman without being a storyteller? I don't think you can be. And maybe in one sense, we're all salesmen.
I mean, whether you're a trial lawyer, uh, even pilots. I mean, we're salesmen because we want to go fly again. We want to do two turns of trip turn that that day with Uh, and fly different airplanes. So we got to go tell the colonel, this is best for you. Even though what I want to do is go fly supersonic that day, you know, that's, uh, so,
[00:30:42] Marco Ciappelli: and by, I, you said you work on the, on the space shuttle, uh, program.
I'm lucky that I had at least six different astronauts that been on my show. Um, Ellen Collins and, uh, Pamela Roy and I mean. I can tell you those guys are amazing storytellers. I mean, they have great story to tell you Let's start with that, but they have the passion like when you said pilot Needs to be I mean, they're all former pilot most of them anyway And uh, yeah, it's not just about the stories how you tell the story and uh, I was fascinated by this I hope you come back again.
I think we can talk about It Other things unrelated to the book, but Sounds to me you have a really big passion for storytelling. So this is the place.
[00:31:38] Raymond Paul Johnson: Okay, I'm looking forward to it. No, really, and we'll have to be in real life sometime too since you're a Southern Californian.
[00:31:46] Marco Ciappelli: Maybe, maybe we will meet down in the South Bay.
I'll bring my two lapels and we'll have a conversation. Why not? That's an idea.
[00:31:54] Raymond Paul Johnson: Tell me when.
[00:31:56] Marco Ciappelli: I'll give you a couple of minutes, the last two minutes, just to invite people to read your book. Okay. It's your, it's your final words for the jury right now.
[00:32:08] Raymond Paul Johnson: My final words for the jury. Usually I get to think a little about it.
[00:32:13] Marco Ciappelli: No, no, no. You don't need this. This is your audience. You're not winning or losing a case.
[00:32:18] Raymond Paul Johnson: Here's um, here's what I'd say that's amazed me. Uh, I wrote this book, it was from the heart, but you know, a lot of people write from the heart and they finish the book and, and it doesn't, it never gets traditionally published.
And uh, when I started this, I, I, I learned that, you know, what people do is they put out query letters and I won't go into that whole thing. We can do that another time if you'd like, but it's a long arduous project to get a book traditionally published, to get an agent, all of this. So I said, uh, well, in fact, James Lee Burke says he was rejected 300 plus times and he's a master of writing.
He was rejected by agents 300 plus times. So, um, what I did, I short circuited and this is kind of last comment, but also a big hint for those of you out there who are, are writing books or want to write books. I said, You know, if James Lee Burke was rejected 300 times, I'll never be better than James Lee Burke.
Never, ever. It's impossible. I need a shortcut. My shortcut was to finish the manuscript and enter it into the few contests, uh, international contests, actually, uh, that allowed unpublished manuscripts to be published. to compete against published books, uh, published novels. I did, I entered five of them and, uh, in essence, I either won or was a finalist in all five.
That's what these five at the bottom are all about here. Um, so I say that because once I started winning these awards for the unpublished then getting an agent Getting a traditional publisher to say yes, uh, became so much easier. In fact, very easy. And yet, um, it's what I'd suggest for anybody who's doing it.
Put your, put your work out there, see how it bounces against others. Make it the best work you can do and good things can happen.
[00:34:43] Marco Ciappelli: And I think this is a great invitation for people to read the book when it comes out, which I believe is June 25th.
[00:34:52] Raymond Paul Johnson: June 25th, right.
[00:34:53] Marco Ciappelli: Wow, good memory I have right here. I didn't, I wasn't reading.
That was very good. So, uh, we'll This will definitely be seen and listened to before that, but I know you also can pre order. So whenever you're listening to this, I invite people to do so. There's going to be notes about your website, your social media. People can get in touch with you and of course, links to the book as well.
I want to thank you. I want to thank the audience for listening to us. I hope they had some good time and they learned something. And, uh, and, uh, reflect a little bit on, on storytelling and, uh, yeah, that's what it's all about. Stories, storytelling.
[00:35:35] Raymond Paul Johnson: And hopefully they were entertained, right? Yeah. No, it is so important.
[00:35:40] Marco Ciappelli: Entertaining and have more questions now than when they started. Because I love people with questions. That's, that's it. Stay tuned, everybody. Subscribe. There'll be more stories like this. And, uh, Ray, thank you so much for being on the show.
[00:35:58] Raymond Paul Johnson: Bye bye, everyone. Bye bye.